It seems these Oneness (Sabellian) Christians misunderstand what Trinitarian Christians believe. I do not know if this is deliberate. I suspect it is. A Trinitarian is anyone who believes in One God, but Three Persons. As I understand the Bible, the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Old Testament, as well. Jesus tells us in the New Testament that he has a Heavenly Father, and a Holy Spirit.
What the Oneness Christians seem to not grasp is the fact that any one of the Persons of the Holy Trinity is 100 percent God. They seem to think that Trinitarians see God divided up into thirds. They see a god behind the God ever changing his costume. One second He is Father, the next He is Son, lastly, He is the Holy Spirit.
This Oneness does not jibe well with the New Testament. For one thing, Jesus says, "Go forth baptizing in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". He says, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father". Jesus also told us to call God, "Father" or "Daddy". At the end of His earthly life He says that He must go home to send the Holy Spirit. Clearly they aren't taking these parts of the Gospel literally or even in context.
Oneness Churches seem to preach that anyone who was baptized as an infant by the pouring form and the Trinitarian formula will not ever go to Heaven. They also teach that those who were baptized by full immersion, using the, "I baptism you in Jesus' name" will go to heaven unless, of course, they ever leave their Oneness Church. I find this presumptuous and abusive on their part.
Some regard Oneness Churches as heretical at best, cultic at worst. They tend to fall within the Pentecostal framework. The CFCMI cult uses the false doctrines of Oneness and rebaptism in Jesus' name as a way to scare people, mainly young sailors, into joining and to scare them into staying. Staying means servitude, extreme poverty and abuse. Leaving means certain damnation. That is what is taught. For the record more have left there than the number who have stayed.
Trinitarians who are most of us, believe in One God, NOT THREE. We believe that God is love. With that goes the power to be comprised of Three Persons. The Father and Son always were. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the other two because God IS LOVE. We should not try to limit God. We can never understand God. We aren't nearly that intelligent.
As far as baptism by immersion goes, no Christian is opposed to this. Most modern Churches no longer have baptism pools. It has to do with logistics, mainly. Some Churches still do baptize by immersion.
Comments (28)
I dont think this discussion of the trinity means anything, i mean as long as you accept christ as your savior and believe in him thats all you need. A relationship with God is what the whole point of the Bible is, no amount of arguing and religion will solve your questions on the trinity. I frankly dont care, and that retard that tried to tell me that i am going to hell if i dont do his little sprinkling has lost his way. He is why many turn away from christianity. Most christians in my view are VERY close minded on so many important issues, not that non christians are any different haha, but just religious ppl in general
@navybluewalliser - Jon, I respect your opinion. I also know that this "Oneness" and "Jesus Name Baptism" by full immersion is the club that keeps many in CFCMI for decades, even. They view Trinitarian baptism as false, as you well know. I don't think Watson is as formidable as many longtime CFC walkouts think he is. Yes, they love to threaten people with Hell. Their pastors are all about money, not serving God.
I also know that CFCMI has completely folded two of their fellowships in the past three months.
Yes, I firmly believe that we must accept Jesus as our personal saviour. I couldn't agree more. Those longtime members need to walk out, relocate, and find meaninful employment.
Thank you for your post.
Please friends, brothers and sisters in Christ, must we assist the adversary by attacking each other? Whom do we serve in doing so? Is ours not the One God? Are we not one body? Why serve the adversary with these bickerings and strivings?
Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand. - Romans 14:4
@AOK4WAY - Nice post. Thank you. You make a good point.
I'm not sure how to respond. I am referring to a cult that sees all outsiders as their adversaries and evil. They think they will be the only ones saved. Their view of Godhead and baptism are at the heart of it all.
Anyone who walks out will go to Hell, ITO. Their founder died in prison 10 years ago. Would you like more information?
@romic - nah, the time I spent reading about heretics is time I can use better in Father's Word
What I saw was an argument regarding proper baptism. My question is this: Is it the baptism itself or the repentance and the burial with Yeshua that it signifies that really matters?
Trinitarian or One-God? I avoid these issues because I am far too afraid that I might speak in error. Examine the following verses side by side and you'll see why I'm so afraid to take this one on:
For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. - 1 Cor 13:12-13
Verily I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and their blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: - Mark 3:28-29
Do you see where I'm coming from, friend? Can we REALLY know? In the years that I've been studying the Word, I haven't been able to come to know for SURE how to understand the verses that apply, and I'm not going to take anyone else's speculations as gospel, so I remain silent on this one, allowing my faith and His grace to carry me right past it.
Yeshua's Peace be with you, and with us all
@AOK4WAY - It is also written, "Go for baptising in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit". I am not trying to be legalistic, but rather to expose legalism. This is cult with which have a personal axe to grind. It gets complicated.
God bless you, too!
@romic - Yes friend, but are you aware that the translation of that and other pertaining verses has been legitimately called into question? I would encourage you to think carefully before further exposition on the topic. Peace friend, peace, there is no accusation here, just brotherly love and concern. Translations have been botched so tragically for so long that I just have to let some things go, and accept that His grace is the source of my salvation, and that there are some things I'll never know until I am perfected.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. - 1 Corinthians 13:12-13
If this is a cult, and if it has a personal axe to grind, and especially if it feels personal to you, then in the name of Yeshua Messiah, I exhort you to stop attacking and start blessing them and praying for them!
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. - Luke 6:26-28
It isn't our job to fight them, or to "save" people from what they teach. Father draws those whom He will to Himself through His son Yeshua! Any heresy that is preached can not harm the true follower of Messiah! He knows His sheep, they know His voice, and they follow Him but flea the voice of a stranger! No man plucks frim His hand those whom Father has put into it!
Peace to you, friend! Peace, blessings, and an ever closer walk with our God!
@AOK4WAY - I pray for them constantly. They have hurt many because they are abusive. It isn't really about doctrine. They are an abusive, coercive organization, not a real Church. They have hurt me and some people I care about.
Please visit www.abusivechurches.org
and you will see.
I thank you for your interest in this matter. I will try to be more charitable, just the same.
@romic - Thank you for the link, friend! Since one good turn deserves another, here's a great link in return! It's bible study software that's completely awesome, amazingly powerful, and absolutely FREE! Take your study to a whole new level! Father's Word is the only word for me! How about you?
I'm glad that you've accepted my message in the spirit in which it was offered. If they've harmed you or those you care about, what better way to draw men into a better direction than by reflecting Yeshua Messiah's love and light in their direction? You won't change what they're doing, but you may draw some of their victims away by presenting a better alternative.
By turning the other cheek enough times, we may just wear out their smiting arm, know what I mean?
@AOK4WAY - "Trinitarian or One-God? I avoid these issues because I am far too afraid that I might speak in error."
The Church has from the beginning said God is three persons, in one God. God chose to show us this. In obedience we follow, not always understanding.
I like your posts, and your gentle, peaceful approach. I agree with romic, but we can error on the side of self-confidence, and sound arrogant. It is also possible, though, to error on the other side, and say that we can't really understand God at all; here, we risk the error of pushing our loving God away, while saying we dare not get too close. Our God wishes to be in a dialog with us, so we must be open, and exist in this middle ground which isn't always comfortable.
@monobeam - Friend, I know well that the Word was there in the beginning, but I surely haven't found any reference to a church being there.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
I know that there are those whose loyalty is to the "church" and it's doctrines above even the Word of Life, but I'm not one of those, and I tend to become a little less gentle when dealing with someone who is, as they are the enemies of the truth and of the King and Kingdom to which I pledge my allegiance.
"Church" is a word that many people and groups have laid claim to over the centuries. Could we simplify the discussion by taking it directly to the Word, which is the only authority in which I place my trust?
I offer the following verses for your consideration:
As an eagle that stirreth up her nest, That fluttereth over her young, He spread abroad his wings, he took them, He bare them on his pinions. Jehovah alone did lead him, And there was no foreign god with him. (Deu 32:11-12)
And Hezekiah prayed before Jehovah, and said, O Jehovah, the God of Israel, that sittest above the cherubim, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth. Now therefore, O Jehovah our God, save thou us, I beseech thee, out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou Jehovah art God alone. (2 Kings 19:15, 19) and also (Isaiah 37:16,20)
There is none like unto thee among the gods, O Lord; Neither are there any works like unto thy works. All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; And they shall glorify thy name. For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: Thou art God alone. Teach me thy way, O Jehovah; I will walk in thy truth: Unite my heart to fear thy name. (Psa 86:8-11)
Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?); that frustrateth the signs of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; (Isaiah 44:24-25)
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:23-24)
Yea and if I judge, my judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. (John 8:16)
I and the Father are one. (John 10:30)
But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you. (John 14:26)
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me: (John 15:26)
Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. (John 16:31-32)
But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you. So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Romans 8:9-14)
And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Galatians 4:6)
That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare unto you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us); that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with us: yea, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ: (1 John 1:1-3)
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. (1 John 5:6-8)
I ask you friend: If I baptize in the name of the Father, I baptize in the name of Jehova. If I baptize in the name of the Son, I baptize in the name of Yeshua. If I baptize in the name of the Spirit, what name do I use?
As you can see, there are verses enough to at the very least give a brother pause for further consideration of the issue. I invite your response. I ask only that you instruct me from the Word of Life, and not from theological or doctrinal theses or other such extraneous and possibly fallible sources.
Peace to you, and may it be with us all.
@AOK4WAY - Thanks for the quotes. In those beautiful quotes I see Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- do you disagree? Your quotes show our God to be unified; one God, three persons.
If you do not think as I that our loving God makes and maintains the Church every moment, that the Spirit must provide it with its life, so so speak, not just once, but at every second of the Church's existence, then I may not be able to reach you. If you see a Church brought into reality by Jesus, then there is Hope.
If I may be so bold, I see the Church (remember, it is immortal) as being there in the beginning during creation (though it did not exist in physical form). It says let us create in our image... Many believe that Jesus was there with the Father (I think this is generally agreed upon Christian thought); can we see the Church as being there, too?
Now, you asked a question about baptism; "If I baptize in the name of the Spirit, what name do I use?" Can't we just say Spirit? Your quotes included The Spirit.
The only way anything I say will make sense is if there is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and, if the Son gave us the Church, and continually gives it in a way that keeps us dependent on His continued giving. The Church is where the Spirit works.
I pause; brother, many verses show one thing -- unity. It is a unity man can not create. I am not the Truth, but I hope the Truth is in me, in that it is immanent, inside, dwelling within... Just as the Truth dwells within the Church, lives there.
@monobeam - "The church says this, the church says that, so believe the church" is your argument as far as I can see, friend. I want to! I do want to! But the church didn't die for me, and the church can't pay the price for my sins. I won't believe a single thing just because the church says it! I must be shown in the Word itself! I must be convinced of the rightness of the church! This is biblical. I am seeking. I am knocking. I am asking.
Friend, I must in love point out to you a grave error in your statements. The church is not given any guarantee of immortality just for being a church. In point of fact, Christ Himself threatens the churches at Ephesus with removal from His presence, the church at Pergamum with destruction at His own mighty hand, the church at Thyatira with great tribulation and with the killing of her children by His own mighty hand. He tells the church at Sardis that although it appears to be a living thing, it is already dead, and tells the church at Laodicea that because is is lukewarm, He will spew it from His mouth. A church is not something to listen to lightly, nor to become joined to lightly! Please note as well that there are apparently seven spirits of God! (Revelation 2-3)
Allow me to answer a question of yours in as direct a manner as I can. "Can't we just say Spirit? Your quotes included The Spirit." Well no friend, according to the command you claim exists, we may not. The claimed command specifically requires that the Spirit's name be used. "The Father" is the generic for YHWH. "The Son" is the generic for Yeshua. "The Spirit" is also a generic, not a proper name. If we are to baptize in the name of the Spirit, would we not have been provided with the name to use as well?
The fact that all scripture refers to the spirit as "the spirit", without providing a proper name for him, indicates that the commandment to baptize in the name of the spirit is a command that we can not properly obey, and it is beyond my conception that the God who died to save us would set us up to fail in such an important task as baptism. That command is, as far as I can discern from scripture, an insert that was added later by men seeking to force scripture to fit doctrines of demons and deceive the world.
But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron; forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth. (1 Tim 4:1-3)
No friend, what I see is an attempt to make these "quotes" as you refer to them fit a doctrine rather than a doctrine that fits the Word. I won't use my imagination to try to make it all fit, as vain imaginations are things to be avoided.
Those "quotes" are the Word of God, in which resides all Truth and POWER. If there be any truth in a church, it is the Truth of the Word of God, and not any manufactured by the imaginations of men. If you would show me truth that I may have missed, you must do so from the same Word of Truth. I ask you in earnest to enlighten me from His Word if you are able. I do not wish to remain ignorant of any of His Truth, even the smallest detail of it, but I do reject thoughts and beliefs which have their origins in the mind and heart of man, both of which are deceptive and corrupt. No man on earth is exempt or ever has been with one exception, that of Yeshua Messiah, who is God made flesh.
I have provided many scriptures which seem to indicate that the premise and doctrine you are promulgating is false. I ask you again to respond to these verses with scripture, and allow scripture to interpret scripture. I've also provided some verses that may support your argument, but you seem to have passed over those as well. I'll leave it to you to discern which they are
I ask you:
If Jehova alone led the Hebrews, where was the spirit? In Jehova, not with Him, yes? (Deu 32:11-12)
If Jehova is God alone, how then may men refer to the Holy Spirit as God? Is it not true that the Spirit is God because he is one and the same with the Father and the Son who are one? (2 Kings 19:15, 19) and also (Isaiah 37:16,20)
If YHWH stretches forth the heavens alone, where then is the operation of the Spirit? Is it not within YHWH rather than beside Him? (Isaiah 44:24-25)
If God is a spirit, and there be yet another seperate and distinct Holy Spirit, would there not then be two holy spirits? Or is God not holy? God forbid that any man or church should say such a thing! (John 4:23-24)
If Yeshua said He is not alone, but in the company of the Father always, where then is the Holy Spirit? In them, not with them, yes? (John 8:16)
If Eternal Father was to send the Holy Spirit in Yeshua's name, how then are men to baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit?(John 14:26)
If the Spirit dwelling in us is the same as Christ himself dwelling in us, and if we are made in His image, does not then the Spirit dwell within Him rather than beside Him? For it is said to dwell within us, not beside us! And if the Spirit dwelling in us is the same as Christ dwelling in us, is Christ not the same as the spirit? And if Christ and the Father are one, and Christ is the same as the spirit, are not all three one in being? (Romans 8:9-14)
If our fellowship is from the beginning with the Father and His Son Yeshua Messiah, have we no fellowship with His Spirit? Or is the Word of God in error through omission of fact, in need of human intervention to fully develop God's truth? Or is it better to say that by having fellowship with the father and the Son, we have fellowship through the Spirit which dwells within each? (1 John 1:1-3)
If the Spirit is the Truth (1 John 5:7) and Yeshua Messiah is the Truth (John 14:6) and Yeshua and the Father are ONE (John 10:30), then are not all three the same Holy and Eternal being?
If you ask me to accept doctrine that is not supportable directly by the Word of God, then I reject your argument in it's totality. If however you are willing and able to instruct me from the Word of truth, I will indeed be in your debt!
Friend, as I've said, I have actually provided several verses that, with some study, may be used in support of your premise, as well as verses of scripture which seem to indicate that your argument is false in the extreme. That in itself is reason enough for me to avoid any conclusion as to the rightness or wrongness of any argument in this regard (although I do reject the reasons for your argument so far). I must avoid speaking wrongly (by way of conclusion or teaching) of the Holy Spirit, for my salvation depends on it! (Mark 3:29)
My current position is one of gratitude for the grace and mercy which carry me beyond the need to understand such things perfectly. Indeed, we all see truth imperfectly until we ourselves are perfected, and that is the reason I reject the fruit of the human mind and insist that all Truth must come from the mind and Word of God Himself.
For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. (1 Cor 13:12)
@AOK4WAY - It is clear that we differ on matters concerning the Church. I see the Church in the Bible; you don't. I can not help you if this is the case.
I will try to correct one error: at Pentecost the Spirit came to the apostles. They are the Universal Church. You talk about things that can happen to Churches (particular Churches). These are not the same. There is the Church founded at Pentecost -- note there are no people going to particular Churches yet -- then there are cities with Churches afterwards. Please read carefully, and ponder. I maintain that the Church (not any particular Church in a town, but the Universal Church) is immortal, is organic, can not die, was founded by Jesus to spread the Word to all peoples. Jesus never intended us to come to Him in a way that avoided His Church ("Do not cling to me.")
@monobeam - He that saith unto the wicked, Thou art righteous; Peoples shall curse him, nations shall abhor him: But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, And a good blessing shall come upon them. He kisseth the lips Who giveth a right answer (Proverbs 24:24-26)
Rather than correcting an error, you have only compounded your own. That which is eternal can not be built or established, having already been in existence.
And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)
You attempt to reason that Yeshua instructs those who followed Him not to cling to Him, but you lie by ommission of further facts, sir.
Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God, and your God. (John 20:17)
And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven. (Acts 1:9)
There were only 12 apostles, but around 120 people in that room, each of whom received the Holy Spirit. Paul was not present at all. Was he not an apostle, given the same gift?
Now hear the Word of Truth, of Him who is both Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end:
Revelation 17:
And there came one of the seven angels that had the seven bowls, and spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters; with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and they that dwell in the earth were made drunken with the wine of her fornication. And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness: and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations, even the unclean things of her fornication, and upon her forehead a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.
Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth: and they are seven kings; the five are fallen, the one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a little while. And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goeth into perdition.
And the ten horns that thou sawest are ten kings, who have recieved no kingdom as yet; but they recieve authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour. These have one mind, and they give their power and authority unto the beast. These shall war against the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings; and they also shall overcome that are with him, called and chosen and faithful.
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her utterly with fire. For God did put in their hearts to do his mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished. And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
From Wikipedia, Entry on Rome:
Rome is in the Lazio region of central Italy on the Tiber river (Italian: Tevere). The original settlement developed on hills that faced onto a ford beside the Tiber island, the only natural ford of the river. The historic centre of Rome was built on seven hills: the Aventine Hill, the Caelian Hill, the Capitoline Hill, the Esquiline Hill, the Palatine Hill, the Quirinal Hill, and the Viminal Hill. The city is also crossed by another river the Aniene which joins the Tiber north of the historic centre.
Please note that the original greek word "oros" which has been translated "mountains" can also mean "hills". You may confirm this by looking in Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries for the word ορη (oros), Strong's number 3735.
Repent sir, while there is yet time. Come out of her, and pray for His mercy and forgiveness.
Jehovah judge between me and thee, and Jehovah avenge me of thee; but my hand shall not be upon thee. As saith the proverb of the ancients, Out of the wicked cometh forth wickedness; but my hand shall not be upon thee. After whom is the king of Israel come out? after whom dost thou pursue? after a dead dog, after a flea. Jehovah therefore be judge, and give sentence between me and thee, and see, and plead my cause, and deliver me out of thy hand. (1 Samuel 24:12-15)
@AOK4WAY - @monobeam - The truth is, I set up this thread to try to explain how doctrine can be twisted to lead people astray. CFCMI is just one of tens of thousands of Christian Cults who do so. I personally know members of CFCMI I know and they live miserably, destitute lives for the most part. Most do not have health care, even, nor retirement benefits, etc.
As to what Revelation meant by a City built on Seven Hills, it could also mean Pagan Rome. the '666' of Revelation has also said to be alluding to the Emperor Nero. I resent the Catholic Church being referred to as the Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17-18. www.catholic.com/library/Whore_of_Babylon.asp
I understand the arguments that both of you are both making. I personally believe that Jesus (Jeshuah) did start The Church because that is what he told (Simon) Peter. Peter along knew Jesus was the Christ as the Father had revealed it to him.
What really matters most to me, is that if the Bible is the Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit, then we must interpret it through the light of the Holy Spirit, since He is the Author. There is no room for private interpretation. Private and inconsistant interpretation leads to oppression, and cultic misinterpretations, not to the freedom Jesus intended for us.
To date there an estimated 55 thousand groups who call themselves Christian because they do not agree on how to interpret the Bible, and for the corruption that ensues from missinterpretation.
To Those who have been hurt by Abusive Churches: you have my sympathy and prayers.
To Those who wish to continue debating this topic: you also have personal pages on XANGA. IMO, it has run its course.
May God Bless Us All!
@romic - You intended to explain how doctrine can be twisted and distorted? You have a personal axe to grind, short and simple. At least be honest enough to say so. Your criticisms of this group, and no I'm not interested in any links to them, are simply not biblical.
And he that was sown among the thorns, this is he that heareth the word; and the care of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. (Matthew 13:22)
And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! (Mark 10:25)
What does health insurance and lack of wealth have to do with following Christ? It seems to me that these are things Yeshua Himself told us not to pay any attention to at all, and indeed, He taught us that the more wealth one has, the less likely one is to enter the Kingdom of heaven!
And Jesus said unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, It is hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:23-24)
And every one that hath left houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit eternal life. (Matthew 19:29)
And who are you to judge another person's happiness or misery? You see with eyes and think with the mind of the flesh, not discerning the things of the spirit. Happiness and contentment are indeed linked with material possessions, only in a negative correspondence. The more you have, the more you "need", and the more you worry about losing it. Indeed, great happiness and new freedom come when we release our clinging grasp and dependence on these things!
Queen of heaven? Pray to statues? Repetitious babbling over beads? You passed judgment on this small group, yet resent the Whore being called out for what she is! I've never met a whore yet that didn't have an answer for what she was doing. Rome was and is pagan to this day. Another wasted link. I came out of her by God's mercy long ago. In love friend, I exhort you to hear the Word of Truth and act accordingly. More of God's Word, less catechism.
Who is that man on a catholic crucifix? My Saviour died and rose again, and sits at father's right hand! He isn't on a cross, nor should anyone think of Him as being on one. The murderer lost! he failed! Christ is risen! The story doesn't end with His death!
Where is the bible in a catholic church? And how many were burned by her for putting the Word of God into the hands of men? Drunk with the blood of the saints! That chalice (gold cup) isn't something I'd recommend drinking from, friend.
Who is the vicar of Christ? What does vicar mean? It means "substitute", one who acts "in place of". What does anitchrist mean? It means instead of or substitute for Christ! In the name of Jehova and His son Yeshua Messiah, think! And come out of her!
@romic - I did get around to checking their site (CFCMI or whatever it is), and I tell you in all honesty, I'm no fan of theirs either now.
One reason is this: Use of the King James Bible, which contains some of the most catastrophic (and purposeful) mistranslations of the Word ever. Any group which has for it's official version that accursed book is already leading people down the wrong path!
That was as far as I went in my exploration. The truth is that I liked the sound of a church that encourages blessed poverty among it's people. That is what I practice to the best of my ability as well, because that is what Christ taught. But what I saw was something else.
Friend, every word I've spoken here has been spoken in love. Love for the brethren, love for the Word of truth, love for the King and His Kingdom to which I pledge my allegiance. I encourage you to look deeper into the Word to discern the truth of the things I've said. Naturally, catechism and doctrine have their replies, but all Truth resides in the Word of God alone.
Peace to you.
I'm sorry that you have such a low opnion of the Catholic Church. I hope that you will visit the link in my above post. This website was started by former Fundementalist Christians, for the most part. I bet they used to see Catholicism much as you do. Please try to see both sides. You have never walked in my shoes.
I thank you for checking out CFCMI. What I am saying is that the Pastors force their flock into extreme poverty, but live lives of great luxury, not unlike the Pharisees. I suffered at their hands. That is the difference.
I also see the KJV as being rather inaccurate, not to mention confusing for modern man.
God Bless You!
@AOK4WAY - OK, I will field these questions, too.
1) If Jesus is King then his mother is the Queen Mother.
2) Statues, paintings, icons--most homes have photos. Are these graven images, too? No we don't pray to saints, nor to statues.
3) Crucifix--we proclaim: "Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again". The crucifix reminds us of Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. He died only once. He is risen and sits at the right hand of the Father. I agree.
4) At every Mass we read the Bible- four reading in all. On Easter we may read aroung thirty. The Eucharisic prayer is also comprised of other Bible readings. We use a missal which is the Bible divided up into daily readings. It is also a prayer book and hymnal. Bibles can be found in Catholic Churches. I like reading the Bible in Church when it is quiet and no services are going on. It's just me and God. Catholics are required to read and study the Bible, actually.
5) Rosary--is actually Biblical. We reflect on the Gospels as we pray the rosary. It is not babbling. It is more like chanting and meditating.
6) I don't understand the part about the gold chalice, but we believe that Jesus is on the altar during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass--Communion. We call it transubstantiation. Gold is precious and worthy of the sacrifice. We believe that this is a permanant change.
Like I said above, learn about Catholicism from Catholics. Try to see another perspective than the one you hold.
@AOK4WAY -
"That which is eternal can not be built or established, having already been in existence."
Thanks; that's what I'm saying. The Church came down like a dove from above; man can make mistakes, hence the warnings to particular Churches, but the Church can not die, can not be killed because it is immortal, and always was. I'm glad we agree on that.
"And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
Amen. See, Jesus made the Church, He's God, so the Church can't fail. We seem to agree on this, too.
If you respond, please don't make it so long, I forget what the point was/is.
@romic - @monobeam - Friends, thank you for answering to the best of your ability. Please allow one more question: If catholics are required to study scripture, why can't anyone among them answer with scripture as requested? Because catholics have no knowledge of scripture. Catechism yes, catholic doctrine yes, but ask them to discuss with you from scripture, and you find yourself speaking to someone without a voice.
Tragic, because the kind of loyalty I know is in catholics toward that church, if it were applied to the Word of Life, would make for a formidable force, the two-edged sword that is the Word of God walking the earth this very day. Instead, the most loyal by nature are silenced because they have no Word in them other than the Word of a man.
I don't get into debates I'm not well prepared for, friend. I had 20 years of preparation for this one in the catholic church, and over 25 years of preparation out of her. I was born and raised catholic. I attended catholic schools all the way through high school, baptized as a baby, confessed, confirmed, altar boy from 1st grade through sophomore year in HS, I don't need an explanation of catholic beliefs. If I didn't know or understand them, I'd be speaking in ignorance, but that just isn't the case. No, I speak from my own knowledge and experience, both as a catholic and now as a student and imitator of Messiah.
If you'd like to discuss these things privately I'm willing to do that, or if you'd just like to study the Word in more depth, I love studying Father's Word, and I've been blessed for my efforts. You will be too if you'll take the amount of time it takes and give it over to Him. Not to the church, nor to doctrine, nor catechism, but to Him and His Word... Remember: The Word WAS GOD. I would love to study with you some time.
By the numbers:
1) Like most people today (catholic or protestant), you've clearly been kept in the dark about who Yeshua Messiah is:
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exodus 3:14)
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. (John 8:58)
I and the Father are one. (John 10:30)
Yeshua and YHWH are one and the same, friend. Not two persons. He refers to "the Father" because He had become flesh, and that just can't happen without a father's involvement. Yeshua was indicating that it was by His own will that He became flesh. As it was in eternity, it was now in flesh: I AM THAT I AM!
I ask you: Is YHWH married to His own mother? Or is Yeshua married to His Father's wife?
The only thing we can learn from scripture itself is that Mary is his mother by way of the fact that she gave Him human form, a flesh body, by her beautiful act of submission to His will under what must have been terribly difficult circumstances. She did not give birth to God, as He existed from the beginning.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. (John 1:1-3)
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
As you have already agreed that something that is eternal can not be built or created, how then can someone who is eternal have a mother or be given birth to? Impossible. It was the flesh that Mary gave birth to, not God, who already existed in Eternity. YHWH entered into temporal, physical existence (as we understand it) through Mary in the form of Yehsua.
Now someone might try to claim that we should all see that Mary is also eternal, that she was there at the time of creation as well, the queen of heaven. Where should we see that other than in our own imaginations, through conjecture, an act of our own intellectual will? And even if that were true (and I'm not saying it is), she would have had to actually predate the eternal to have given Him birth! Impossible either way you look at it!
Yeshua made it clear that his earthly mother was not to be given any special privilege or rank. We are to be imitators of Him, regardless of what men may tell us to the contrary, even in this aspect!
And one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking to speak to thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand towards his disciples, and said, Behold, my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Matthew 12:47-50)
Note that Mary, his mother, was without. He "stretched forth his hand towards his disciples, and said, Behold, my mother and my brethren!"
Yes, Mary submitted to His will, but Mary was not the first nor was she the last to do so. There would have to be a lot of mothers of God and queens of heaven if that was the qualifier. And there is no indication in scripture that she ever did so perfectly, only that she did so in allowing herself to give the Eternal Word human form.
Mary had no special claim to any special title, other than what the angel Gabriel told her, at least as far as scripture reveals:
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Luke 1:30-38)
Nothing there, nothing anywhere in the Word of God about royal titles for Mary anywhere at all - it's unbiblical in it's totality.
Now... if the catholic church claims papal descendence from Peter, why then does it also claim the rightful place of the apostle John, whom Yeshua loved?
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. (John 19:25-27)
2) I have photos and paintings in my home. I don't light candles in front of them, I don't have cushions for kneeling in front of them, I don't have donation boxes in front of them, and I don't say prayers in front of them. Those are all tyhings one does in front of idols.
3) Crucifix is my least concern. I would only ask why Yeshua must remain on it in the catholic mind. The crucifix is now empty, and the Yeshua we pray to, if we pray to Him at all, is not still being executed. He is preparing a place for His brothers in the Kingdom of heaven, and is at YHWH's right hand of power. We agree on that, but the image of a man on a cross does not agree with either of us.
4) As a former altar boy, I know that the book that is paraded in during the opening of the liturgy is NOT a bible, and a missal is NOT a bible. I have never once seen a bible at a catholic mass, not in the hands of a priest, not in the hands of a lay person.
The Liturgical book is not the bible broken into small bits, nor is a missal or a series of missalettes. There are fragments of the bible in them, but at no time is a catholic ever given the entire, complete Word of God - only the chunks and pieces which serve not to do too much harm to catholic catechism and doctrine. If you knew the entire bible, you would have been out of her long ago, friend. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be here contending in love.
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame. They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity. And there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings. (Hosea 4:6-9)
5) There is nothing biblical about the rosary. It is a. praying to Mary, which is sin and b. it is nothing more than repetition of 10 of "Hail Marys", for each one of the "Lord's Prayer" (actually a very bad way to think of this) done over and over. Throw in a "Glory Be", the apostles creed, etc... all this 5 times to pray the rosary ONCE! What did Yeshua say about that kind of thing?
And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (Matthew 6:7)
Lets touch on the immaculate conception and Mary's sinless life for a sec while we're here: the catholic church teaches you that Mary was born and lived without sin, yet the Word of God tells us that just isn't so! More false teaching!
for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)
When was the last time you heard that read at mass, friend? In all your years going to mass, how many times have you ever heard that read? How many times will I find it when I check the liturgical calendar and readings for the past 45 years, the amount of time I've been alive? Shall we check and come back to report what we find?
6) Gold chalice: What does the priest at mass use to pour the sacrificial wine and water into? What is it drunk out of?
And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness: and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations, even the unclean things of her fornication, (Revelation 17:3-4)
Note also that she's arrayed in purple and scarlet. What colors have bishops and cardinals worn historically, friend? This is not the result of listening to anyone tell me anything, friends, this is the result of my own studies. I accept nothing until after I've filtered it through the Word of God, which is all I'm asking you to consider doing.
Peace be with you, and with all reading.
Thank you so very much friends for discussing with me. Please know that it is never my intention to "fight" with a fellow believer. Each word spoken was spoken in love and hope and faith. If nothing else comes of it, a seed has been planted, and I will try my very best to remember to pray for you, that you will spend much time in the Word, investigating for yourselves the rightness or wrongness of what's been said.
Now these were more noble than those in Thesslonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so. (Acts 17:11)
Study tool extraordinaire, FREE here, friends
@AOK4WAY - Here is one more link www.chnetwork.org These are converts and reverts. I hope you read these links I have provided. Don't just believe what those outside the Catholic Church say. To be objective, you need to read some of these Catholic sites, too so that you may be learn the truth. Look up some of these objections: rosary etc.
If you left the Catholic Church, I hope you will share why. Did something bad happen to you?
I, myself am a revert. It was probably due to the pride, my pride and the prideful people at our Church I had to put up with that I left. In the end, Jesus called me back. I believe He is the Blessed Sacrament.
Why can't Catholics debate or quote the Bible? Well, some can. I read the Bible often. For the most part, Catholics study it a Chapter at a time usually during Mass. We aren't about throwing chapters and verses around. Some converts can because they were raised in Churches that did just that. If you ever attended an Easter Vigil, especially at Cathedral, there are sometimes 30 or more minutes of Bible readings before anything else occurs during Mass. I also believe there is more to being a Christian than just debating the Bible. That is just the tip of the iceberg.
The Catholic Church reads the Bible in its entirety once every year. I takes a year to do it.
A recent trend it the development of small, faith sharing fellowships during the week. Faith Alive is a program used to study the Bible and the Faith. Groups of around a dozen or less gather in Church halls or peoples' homes. It is a great way to make friends, too.
Catholics place equal emphasis on the Word of God (Jesus Christ) and the Eucharist (Jesus Christ).
If you don't see Yeshua Messiah on the altar during Mass, you never learned the Catholic faith, IMO. I hope you will someday.
Just because you don't like the rosary doen't make it a sin. The Lord's Prayer is in the Bible (Matt 6:9 and following) . So is the Hail Mary: (Luke 1:28, 1:42). As far as the Glory Be goes, the Bible tells us to praise the Lord. If you reject the Apostles' Creed, why do you? Most Christians accept it.
If you believe Sola Scriptura is Biblcal, then you are mistaken. There is no verse that backs up that teaching.
What Church do you attend or did most recently attend?
I know your intent is not to 'fight'. I don't take it that way. Read the sites I have been giving you links for. You can blog and ask questions there, too. I will help where I can.
God Bless!
@romic - @monobeam - Hello friends. Peace be with you, and with all reading.
Thank you for your warm responses. I tell you in truth that the Spirit of God has given me a warmness of heart for you that is rare indeed in my experience.
Of a courtesy, I thought I should ask you if you would mind my reply being published in the form of an open letter, addressed to you, but also open to all at my page. It is indeed lengthy, and I feel that we who strive to serve both Eternal Father and Son might wish to bring our discussion out where it can be more readily seen by the world.
If you'd prefer that we continue here, I'll be grateful for the privilege of doing so. But I did think it appropriate to ask, especially due to the length of my response. (I've been working on it for around 7 hours now)
Peace be with you, and all reading. Yeshua Messiah's peace be with you and upon your houses.